understanding of the role that, you know, societies play in development, and both this democratization and so forth. so how did you come to these conclusions of, you know, working both beyond the nation-state and, you know, what would be the challenge to civil society to play the most productive role it might play as a partner in this broader development effort? ..

>> as a historian, you tend to see the complexities of the gray, and so, you know, frankly, whatever the problem you're dealing with you, whether it's a business or as a dip mat or others, we're so far beyond the idea of sort of nation states as billard balls. one of the things i try to view is these are very difficult political economies. if there's a problem, and we come off with the best textbook solution, but it doesn't work in the political economy, well, then it doesn't work, and we have not served the client. how can we try to understand their institutions, the limitations, the strengths, the weaknesses, and bring things to bare. this opens the door to the executive branch, the parliaments, and certainly the broader definition of civil

society, so, you know, witness what happened in the arab world. i mean, so this is a very sharp example of you can have certain growth numbers. you can have certain types of performance, but if you don't have inclusive growth or bring people into the societies so it runs through everything. you know, if you think about most any problem i dealt with in any capacity is that if you are trying to get something done or to improve it, you have to have your partner own it. in development, if you can bring money, bring expertise, all sorts of things, but if the local people don't own it, it won't work, and so, you know, civil society is simply a broad phrase in which how people participate in their own future. >> well, thank you for that. one of the interesting things to say is the role the bank played or you personally played as an

advocate to focus on the world's poor, to focus on change that impacts the broadest possible number of people. to what extent have we as a global society been successful dealing with global poverty issues, and is there a sense of the bank playing a role, a catalyst role within that, what sense have we made strides forward and where do you think we need to really push? >> let me come back to that, but i was reflecting on the question before because it could be interesting to the audience, at least this perspective. remember, i was trade representative in 2001. okay, so trade to me, is a fascinating topic because it's both international and domestic. when i came in in 2001, there was literally blood on the walls because people were upset about

issues. whether it's globalization or property rights, pharmaceuticals and others, and, you know, maybe it's my experience in a democratic society, but my view has always been it's better to open up and have dialogue and discourse. i own, you know, i have a preference for it being one where people are not yelling at each other and, you know, throwing things at each other, and so in that sense i'm sort of 18th century enlightment, but that's the way i prefer to do it, but you take life as it is. you have to -- the more you show you're willing to discuss and debate, but the other side of it, and i do this around the world, you have to say, look, if i disagree with you, i have the right to say it. i don't just fold. if i have a different view on the role of energy development or electricity in africa or people don't want dams under what conditions, okay, but then only 30% of the people in africa

have electricity. how will they get electricity? we have an analytical discourse about this. the reason i emphasize this because it's true in diplomacy as well. i was the lead negotiator for the united states at the time of german unification in 1959, and it was an interesting example of state craft and the public's understanding because what our initial read of the situation in late after the berlin wall opened was the people of east germany wanted what the west germans had. there was a school of thought at that time called the third way saying, no, no, we're creating our own separate state. i was in east germany shortly after the wall opened, and i was in lute ran churches -- lutheran churches who played an

important role in the civil society in such it could exist with the democratic republic, but what i could see was this was not going to be a merger. it was going to be a takeover because people wanted what west germany had. okay? it was an understanding of the whole momentum of the next 11 months that east germans were going to come one way or another. understanding societies, understanding the messaging, you know, even if you're a diplomat in the state department, it's critically important, and certainly in the world of development or trade or others, and so i underscore this because, to me, you know -- now, this is like so normal it's obvious, okay? >> right. >> in that how people engage, and then, of course, and you've all been part of this, is that how civil societies engage, and one has to recognize, you know, some of them will be advocates. some of them will be participants. some of them, you know, will be,

you know, a -- opponents, but the world needs room for all of that. you have to decide how to engage with partners in different ways, and to come back to this for the bank, you see, this is interesting because the other lesson for development is governance is important. we have 188 countries now because south sudan just joined. you have different governances k okay? they are not all democracies, obviously, but what you find, part of my life is finding commonground to make a better good out of it. countries with authoritarian systems understand the importance of reaching out to the public and getting public opinion and having a sense of better, sort of, performance for their schools, health care systems, whatever. there's a way you can make better societies as part of this, and, you know, better performance along the way, so

all of this fits within sort of the concept to me of the engagement of civil society and the richness to say nothing to the fact it makes for weaker societies. i come from this point of view again in an enlightment notion is that the state has the role, but in my perfect society, the state's not the all-dominant role, but a servant of the public so the public is groups that organize. >> right. >> so then you asked about the poverty issue. well, you know, macro numbers, you know, the first development goal of cutting poverty in half is one that will be reached, and it's already been reached before 2015, and, you know, but it's been largely the big aspect is the performance in china, but also to a degree india and others, but we've seen progress against africa so in macro

numbers, there's been significant achievements. on the other hand, if you look at the number of people living under $2 a day versus a dollar a day, there's still billions and billions of people. now, they are starting to get a chance -- those levels, the difference is whether it's almost just existence or whether you can start to see a better future. when we start to get in societies where you start to see that, you know, mothers and fathers can create a better chance for their children and a better life, you know, then you start to get involved in takeoff possibilities. now, having said this, when, you know, of course, you have to desegregate in the world. one of the areas i tried to focus on in the bank and many people in this room work with is what paul calls a billion and a half people living in societies where you either got conflict or

post-conflict, and none of it works. you have a downward spiral of government failures, leading economic failures, poverty failures, leading to more violence. that's an area i tried to highlight at the bank, but i think we're beginning in the starting points of the work there, and there's a lot of things the bang and -- bank and others improve to do as partners. i think as you think about poverty, one of the challenges for the world is to recognize that poverty is not only an issue of what they sort as the poorest countries or what we have as the 79ida countries, that's a form of financial support that people get grants or long term loans without interest. 70% of the people living under $2 a day are in so-called middle income countries. part of the challenge at the bank is how do we work with the so-called middle income people that many people in developed countries think are doing well

because they read the stories about india growth or chinese growth, but they don't recognize there's still a lot of poor people. how do we address that? i think to connect civil society with this, you know, what the good news is that countries throughout recognize they don't have money to waste, and so when you are trying to learn more about how to have effective service delivery, you know, people look at traditional cash transfer models, different safety nets, but the feedback you get from civil society is an important dimension of that. we're a long way of overcoming the poverty issue, but on the other hand, i try to emphasize the people at the bank is that if overcoming poverty was easy, somebody would have done it a long time ago. it's been with us for a long time. 23 you look at the strides taken, it's impressive, and it should mote vase us to keep going. >> very interesting frame in both in terms of progress and so

forth, but this broader issue of inclusive growth, of states that are responsible for the citizen youth. you had an interesting innovation, this social accountability fund. this is a concept that, you know, is the world ready for this con cement, and to what ex-- concept, and to what extent does society have to mature as an actor helping states ultimately because it is a country ownership frame, meet their poorer sttses, and also effectively manage their budgets in such a way that we are not seeing corruption? >> yeah. well, at one level, just to give you a sense, i think, i'm trying to remember exact, but this is a rough number. the world bank probably provides about $600 million a year to civil society groups as part of development. i'll give you an example. when we -- when we work with the

government of afghanistan on a development of basic model of health care, our idea is that the government has to own it. one of the dangers is could people of good will go in, try to develop it, but there's no connection with the governed society, and when they leave, it dies. our idea going babe a number of years ago was -- going back a number of years ago was to recognize that the health department ministry could develop something, but didn't have the capacity. it's operated through civil society groups. it's outsourced. whether they are international or domestic, it's had a huge effect on maternal health and infant mortality. you know, effective societies realize you can, in some of the role of civil society groups, is on the service delivery, but what led to the creation of this fund was the idea that i thought

that what i'd seen is a number of civil society groups play a particularly important role on the social accountability side to understand the performance, help us with anti-corruption, try to understand better the service delivery aspect, and you would combine this with transparencies. again, one of my sort of little stories is that, you know, i heard of one education project where someone had the idea of simply putting on the door of the school in the community that this project was supposed to provide, you know, 100 textbooks and two teachers, and only 50 textbooks showed up, and one teacher showed up. the community gets engaged saying, well, where's the rest of this? how do you combine transparency and interaction with a vibrant civil society? going back to the world bank group, we had an arm originally set up in 1954 to help develop

construction in japan. we have a banking arm, and then there's ida in the 60s. my thought was in a way we need something to further support and sort of fund civil society work done on social accountability issues. this is not a slam dunk because, you know, again, if you believe in the separation of state and civil society, i'm always a little weary of public financing or government financing of groups because do they maintain their independence? working with interaction and others, we spent time working with groups saying how can we do this in a way that helps funds these organizations, helps them attribute to civil societies, accountability, maintains independence, has high standards, and that's what we're launching, and it also is the subject of some sensitivity with the board of directors, you know, 25 members covering 188 countries because they are worried well, you know, are we

creating and sponsoring groups that will attack the government? is it too popular for government officials? what we agreed is to start by with countries that are willing to support this, experiment, see the benefit, and as in a lot of things in life, i hope it demonstrates benefits for others. what's interesting again, even non-democratic countries see the benefit of this in their support, and 5 country like tunisia that's going through the midst of a revolutionary period, they have been very supportive about their information acts, auditing acts, their openness, and when we give them budget support, it including legislative changes to drive this forward. i guess the last point is, you know, you can't take anything for granted so as i mentioned in our recent spring meetings when we met with a number of civil society groups, you know, if people think this is important, then you should speak up about it too because it's not so easy

to convince board members to support it. we'll get it going. we'll get initial spore of $20 -- support of $20 million over four years. i understand you had a foundation, and some that are interested in this and can support it in this context and other context. i guess one of the other lessons from the bank, but more generally is you have to build in feedback groups. nobody that has the perfect idea that solves all problems at once. it's not an excuse, but in other words learn and try to use a transparent system to improve what you're doing. >> you now had obviously five years going on five years of experience at the helm of the bank, and you got your stake holders in terms of governments and clients, and you had to sort of, you know, write a letter to dr. kim as he comes in to say, you know, here's some core things that, you know, that i've learned that both in terms of --

not only keeping the bank relevant, but keeping the world bank group at the core front in the role it plays in the multilateral institutions. what would you put in that? >> well, i spent three hours with dr. kim yesterday, so i'm not sure i can convince him. by the way, the bank is fortunate. he's obviously highly intelligent, highly accomplished, very committed individual, and part of the way i'm going to answer the question is i resist the idea of telling your successor of what to do because i think that's their job. something else that -- kind of fits a broader civil society notion. i think change is good. it's good for me, the institution, bringing in things i didn't know, i have things he has less experience with. that's the starting point, but within that string, i'll say

that, one, the simple focus on the clients is very important, and it may seem obvious. if you think, well, aren't you there to serve? let me give an example. in the course of the debate about my successor, there were some people who devoted themselves to development, but in my view, they were repeating the mistakes of years ago when they said, oh, we know the answer. developing countries should just focus on one, two, three, okay? that, to me, is the elite top-down model that's not going to work, and so frankly, i was somewhat disappointed that the people don't recognize the way the bank operates is to say, look, what do you think the problems are, and what have we learned from other countries about how to address those, and, by the way, here's things we think are over the horizon. let's take safety nets. one of the lessons of the financial crisis in east asia

and latin america in the late 1990s, macro stabilization is not enough. if you don't, you don't have nutrition, you don't get kids in school, and you can lose a generation. the good thing is starting in mexico and brazil, they developed conditional cash transfer programs that for a half of 1% of gdp, which certainly makes envious looking at u.s. budget, and they deal with the bottom 15% of the population and connect the money with requiring kids to go to school and get basic health check yums. probably did more for women's health in the history of mexico. we learn lessons. if you give money to the woman head of the household, it gets better use in the community than if it's the men. in brazil and mexico, they are trying to expand financial inclusion by using cards so move beyond the cash system.

now, we've helped expand those two 40 countries, okay? now, coming back to the point, one of my conclusions from the past years is every country needs some basic safety net system because they're not going to be able to control food or oil prices or the other things that can hit people, but what we can do is to try to make sure you got in place something that helps those that are most vulnerable when crisis hits, and so we're doing inventory of every country trying to figure out, well, if not a conditional cash transfer, it'll be a school feeding basis or something like that, and so that's an interaction with the client. it's to show them what's been done, but it's also trying to understand the problems that they see, so client focus. then second, i guess what's been inherent in this, our whole exchange, which is you see the bank as a partner, and how do we add somewhere we are the supports, some we can teach,

some we can learn so a network model, but that's something i'm sure he has a wealth of experience, and by the list of items, by the way, i did list civil society groups and foundations. >> well, thank you for doing that, and i really appreciate that handoff and so open to the concept of the world. it's interesting to me. we reflect on the relevance of the world bank for years to come, the level of capital flows out there. is the core relevance, you know, resources, knowledge, you know, how does the bank play a critical role in what has been a really transformative, ongoing transformative portion of human history of reductions of poverty as, you know, parts of the global economy have stalled and so forth. where is that skill set? >> that's a great can question because there's still a tendency and you see this in evaluating the bank by how much money it's

had. we had a quarter of a trillion dollars there's not worth scoffing at, but on the other hand, it's in the larger things, it's a modest amount. i sometimes point out to people that one of the problems with understanding the world bank is it's called -- [inaudible] they associate banks with lending money, or at least they used to -- [laughter] now they associate with losing money, i guess. [laughter] in reality, where the bank performs best is combining innovative financing. we have to think about how to do rain index futures for various areas, try to help with finance, leveraging and all different things, but also to try to combine that with the knowledge and learning from -- that we generate, that other countries generate, that you generate, and we create various platforms to be able to expand that, but then

to try to make investments that expand market institution and capacity. it's not an individual investment alone, but it's to try, you know, how do you build a system by which others expand. it may be a carbon market. it may be a local currency bond market, microfinance market, it may be the capacity in a conditional cash transfer system. how do you, in a sense, leverage that to expand it? and so what i summarize is we're in the business of development solutions, and some of those solutions will come to the private sector, some will come with partnerships with civil society groups, some of them house the government to use their resources better, and it varies by countries so i was talking with donald of the african development bank last week, and he brought to my attention that now 54 african countries, 46 have proven energy reserves so the big issue for

many of those countries is how will they -- how transparent will they be? how will they use it for inclusive growth? how will they avoid corruption? how do they take care of the environmental issues? how do they avoid dutch disease with the currencies? the bank has to figure out development solutions for that. another example of this -- i have a morning staff meeting every morning so i have all the vice presidents, regional, functional, and others, and one of the things we were talking about was how in some of the post-conflict states that have mineral resources, they got big mining companies, but one of the presidents said it's him with the mining companies, and so can we get some legal help? we do some of that, but one of the things we taked about is developing kind of a quicker response capacity whether it's, you know, a chinese or european or u.s. firm to help a country understand.

well, what should one expect? what are the norms of legal agreements? what are the lessons about how you develop this? that's why, again, i'm very suspect of silver bullets, one size fits all, a world development solution, and we'll keep learning how to do that better. >> well, thank you. i'd like to open it up to our audience here, and if someone has a question, do raise your hand. please keep it to a question, or if your comments are short, fine, but -- >> can i make another comment? >> yeah, go ahead. >> you know, one of the issues i get asked a lot too is, well, all countries are under stress. they're going through a terrible time. why does this matter to them? >> right. >> why should developed countries contribute to this? well, one starting point is two-thirds of global growth in five years came from developing countries. you look at that in the 1990s, it would have been 20% or something.

part of the answer and part of the point i say is we're beyond a model of charity to poor people. this is in self-interest because we want to create more pulls of growth. we know china's one, southeast asia's one, latin america, africa's growing 5% to 6% a year. these provide opportunities to also sell goods, make investments, and so, you noarks as the world economy grows, it's going to benefit developed country. second, if you don't pay attention, they become breeding grounds of problems. whether it's afghanistan or that i was talking about with the development, can't have security unless there's a way to have a economy based on it. whether it's based on the transnational spread of health problems and diseases and pandemics or refugees or immigration. you have a commonality of interests. it covers security. it covers economics. it covers the environment. you know, if you just take the

united states, you know, it's 4% of the world's population, you know, 20% or more of the world's economy, you got an interest in what's happening out there whether it's from your own sense of ethics or your economic or security self-interest, and so institutions like the world bank help address some of those problems and help not only improve the lives for people in those countries, but coming back to help europe, the united states, japan, canada, and others. >> obviously, you're talking to a converted audience in terms of international audience inspired to link ourselves together and help create a common good both in the developed world and developing world. i'll open it to questions. raise your hand, identify yourself, and don't be shy. i know it's hard to be the first one out there. >> one over here.

[inaudible] >> thank you for the comments. i'm ken forth with interactions. you obviously had broad experience both internationally and within the u.s. government, and i wonder if you can step back and reflect on what, and as an american, what single change or, you know, two or three changes in terms of our domestic politics do you think would make the u.s. a more effective, a more responsible, a better global actor or citizen? >> well, i met with bob car in the last week, the new foreign minister of australia, very successful premier of new south wales, strong gentleman with an interest in the united states. he said his message in washington was the united states

is one budget deal away from being restored on the world stage, and i think -- and he was also saying that some countries in east asia are saying, look, don't spend your time in the united states, we're going to be the next power, so pay attention to us, and it's a challenge for the united states on how to deal with that, so frankly, you know, my feeling is that whether it's a question of the united states' ability to be a strong economy, to be innovative, to support the foreign affairs budget, whether it's security issues, it has to start at home, and i think that's a key issue of going to restore the fundmentals of u.s. growth that include dealing with the spending and debt and deficit policies, not relying solely on monetary policy as we've largely been doing because if you rely on monetary policy

for a long time, you'll plant the seeds of other problems, but i don't only mean the fiscal issues, it's also what i find interesting now and my experience with the world bank is that because i deal with so many countries, there's a lot of 0 going on -- innovation going on in developed countries that developed countries should pay attention to. one of the concerns that has a lot of middle income countries have is avoiding the voled middle income trap. how do you keep up the productivity? these issues relate to the united states in terms of money policy and education, and put a lot of money in education schools, but what do we get for it in terms of overall performance? these are probing. you know, when you read about the infrastructure in the united states, they are talking about how do you use public money? i can't go to a developing country that doesn't have a public-private partnership for

this. i can go to parts of china that will monetize the toll roads, but the state of pennsylvania refuses to do so. we have states that have liabilities, but they have assets, and they are less open in using assets than developing countries are. i guess the basic point for the united states is, i think, it's got to get its economic house in order, but as part of that, i don't only mean the budget, and that's a key part of it, but it's also freeing up some of the ingenuity and entrepreneurialism and drive and building for a next generation. >> another question. you're all quiet. >> when you stump civil society, you've done a good job. >> they all sit there quietly. >> that's good. >> there's one in the back there, and then we'll move up to the front. identify yourself. >> hi, thank you very much.

aaron from catholic relief services. mr. zellick, how do you address the issues in the -- [inaudible] a couple years ago, talked not so much about the speaking state, but the rent generating state. thanks. >> explain that further, would you? >> explain it further, exactly. >> it's political economic system where the state essentially controls access to markets through political patronage, and so it oversteps the political arenas into more the economic and even the social arenas where civil society organizations included are very much tied in this sort of top-down vertical network of touching client networks. >> okay. like the corporatist states from the 20s and 30s?

well, -- let me start out with this. i think, you know, what we've seen across the development field is there have been different approaches that have worked in terms of engagement of the state, so, you know, it starts out 19th century liberalism, property rights, contract, basic performance, basic education, services, and others, but obviously, there's been models sometimes of state driven developments. you skipped the tricky governance issues. if you look at the history of state-owned enterprises like latin america, they are patronized, not as protected, and they may be a good deal for those a part of it, but they are not such a good deal for society as a whole, and, you know, he's an interesting --

here's an interesting issue. you see in the discussion of mexico, the role of padmec, and the role of the pri, but the pri candidate, you know, actually has been sort of saying, well, maybe we need to relook at this, and now because if you look at their revenues for mexico, a big share comes from the amounts of going down, and performance is worst, environmental performance is not as good. on the other hand, you have some state owned companies like saudi ram co and others that are run quite well; right? one of the things to encourage is have the mexicans look at some of the other models, but also whether they might approach sort of a change to consider additional role of the private sector. i think what the bigger issue is presented by that related to civil society is that old

corporatist model is almost like a turn neck where everybody has to fit into the system in some fashion. labor unions are kind of part of it. the businesses all have to cop out to it and so on and so forth. i think most experiences was that was not the as successful economically and didn't lead to as free a society, and so in that sense, i think, you know, the need to create more space for individuals, for community group, and others will be done differently in different societies. look, i obviously believe in democracy, but shorter democracy, you can have a broader participating system. a -- an aspect to think about is state owned enterprises generally. in china, we have a report called "the 2030 china report" that looks at the growth model

over the next decade or more, and frankly, i compliment the chinese grows 10% a year for 30 years, but realize the model they had in 78 with exports and investment led growth was not successful going forward so part of what they engage with us on is prompting their own debate and their own political transition about these issues, but once you get these enterprises, the state-owned enterprises, they are interest groups with their hold and like the idea they are given really inexpensive loans, and they don't dividends things back to the public and have retained earnings and less competitive issues and so on and so forth. in some ways it's intellectually intrigues because when you see the growth in emerging markets and some of the difficulties of u.s. and others in the financial crisis, the more active debate,

but i think that over time it's very important -- my view would be the discussion with civil society recognizes some of the dangers of some of these systems, under what conditions do they work better than others, and also what does that say about the good society in which you want to live in? let me give you, again, the mexican example in historical terms. i was very active with nafta, and why i thought nafta was going to be important because you could see the old pri system in the mid-80s was breaking up, and i would at least argue that, you know, the pri was a representative of that operatist, client list set of models. the question is where were the pieces to patch themselves, the businesses and others, and nafta was more than a trade agreement, but embrace of north america

with mexico, and you move into a competitive democracy and decentralize power to the state level. one of the issues in mexico is power at the state level, and then, you know, what the roles of the component of that system. this is still a fight in mexico today because with narco traffickers, will they take over the judicial system and local police forces? i admire, and i think president calderon and that's where the drug traffickers will go, and connecting this to the bank, one of the things we had in the spring meeting was i worked with central america a lot overs years. we were bringing together the private sector in central america and civil society groups and some foundations and some universities to try to deal with the broader question of violence

in central america, which is part of the gangs, narcotics, and others, and i don't have the numbers in front of me anymore, but the population is about the same as the population of central america, and if you compare the murder rates in the two it's like exponential, but part of the message -- this was intriguing to me -- this group that we started out with was in some ways categorized by a school that created a regional business group, and one of the dean of the business schools came to me and said, look, you know, we're worried about the public administration in our societies. can we work with you to develop the capacity in our government to deal with these guys. the private sector said we'll stay as far from the government as we can. you know, it's corrupt, takes our money, it will be a wall and

so on and so forth and the lesson i saw in colombia or mexico is it kills your society. it was a good sign that the business community wanted in the fight. part of what i was trying to do is show how we can also work in support. it's part of the larger aspect we've talked about -- about, you know, private sectors not only the private making sector, but the non-profit sector as well. >> another question here. >> okay. >> okay, thank you for the work you've done at the world break. i'm gabrieliza, and i'm from tanzania. my question is on youth unemployment. this week, about 90,000 students graduate in tans tanzania. 20% go to college. the rest have no employment or no alternative ways to find jobs. what is the bank doing towards countries or to advise government, and what can you tell your successor to do when

he comes in to deal with youth unemployment? thank you. >> well, let me start by saying around the world, so not only in tans tanzania or africa, but in countries, developing countries and developed countries, what i find is a huge area of interest is the interconnectivity between education, skills, and work force. you know, and we're working with a variety of partners to look at this issue. i mean, it's an intriguing one. we started with the islamic development bank, part of the broader partnerships to do research on education and youth unemployment and came up with an e for e initiative, education for employment, how to do public-private partnerships and private sector performance, which, it turns out there's a larger sector of this done by the private sector to help connect people, but it's also,

of course, not so much the education and having the feedback for the schools about what employers are looking for without just making it sort of narrow training, but the bigger issue, i think, is this. our next world development force that we've done, you know, the land mark reports, try to push the agenda. one we did on food and agriculture and gender and conflict states. the next one is on stocks it basically -- this comes out later this year, and just to give you a short form perspective of this, some of the questions it's asking is -- i don't want to reduce this, but many of the economics profession would simply say jobs is an employment issue and a derivative of growth. get growth, you create the jobs. we're twisting the prism a little bit trying to say let's understand the value of jobs from a different dimension.

for example, individual self-worth, social cohesion, broader productivity in the society, okay? some of these are what we call extraalties; right? the question is if you start to look at the problems from that, what are the gaps? they may be discrimination gaps. they may be institutional gaps. there may be information matching gaps. what policies might you want to do to try to address those? when you think about jobs and obviously it varied by countries, and so if you're a country with a large agriculture sector, urbanizing, post-conflict, and one of them is youth. one of the things i hope comes from the study is to recognize there's a loss for society as well as the individuals if you don't make special efforts for people at early stages to get engaged in the work force to feel they are learning skills,

but also a sense of social, you know, worth and other aspects. there's lessons that this is a nice thing about development solutions. we've seen from various countries things you can do that are consistent with markets and incentives, but to encourage them. maybe entrepreneurship or country work programs or things that allow people to get that transition, from school to work to job, in a way that is good for them and good for the society as a whole, so when you asked what will i tell my successor? i'll say you inherited a good world development report. [laughter] >> interesting how we tend to look at the world as the glass half full, the problems there, economics are often termed as the dismal science. looking the other way of this. if you had to conclude, what are the bright spots out there?

what are the places that we can build on and look at sort of using the shining spots of growth of human pros -- prosperity in euros -- years to come. >> think about the development and the fact that countries used to be considered charity cases are now driving the world's growth. it's a huge opportunity. it's not just in terms of gdp statistics, but in terms of the individual performance of each of the people, and so, i mean, you know, the sciencists, the engineers, the potential creative entrepreneurs, you know, this is an enormous thing, and people, if not given an opportunity, so rather than be negative about this, i see huge potential, but you have to keep trying to find win-win solutions. now, at the most individual level, i'll tell you what i find motivating as i'm sure you do. when i work with the very poorest, and i worked with the self-employed women's association in india and works

in south asia with over 2 million women. a lot of the women are very, very poor, okay? they have been given no chance in life. you start to see what a little opportunity makes and a little difference makes, and the empowerment of them in terms of whether one of the things we help finance and create credit for is a solar lamp and how they helped design it so it's for reading, general lighting, help with a cell phone, and within the first week, they make it, manufacture, and they had over 10,000 sales of this, which, again, we helped tried to create the basis of financing. when i talked to -- i remember one woman, the poorest of the poor, these are people that would spend eight months a year in salt flats trying to gather salt, and one woman said now because she has a sense of making a difference for her children, you know, they leave the children in a village with, you know, grandparents or others

so they can start to get an education opposed to spending eight months -- then you start to -- this is very interesting because i was talking with them about water and sanitation project that i was trying to work with the government of india on this. some of the women started to cry because this is fundmental. they don't have proper sanitation, they don't drink or eat properly. some of the things at the core of their lives and with a little of support, you can make a difference, and so what i find to answer the question about the u.s., sometimes i see people in the united states, and, you know, to be honest, they have a lot of advantages they don't take advantage of. i see people in poor countries, that just given a little chance, a little chance, they'll try to use it. you know, that's inspiring for people. >> i'd really like to thank you both for your comments and also for the leadership role that you've played at the bank. your openness with civil society and the vision you have, and

really pleased for joining me and thanking zeollick for his leadership. [applause] >> [inaudible] [applause] >> let me close, because i know time is up and you had a long three days, but i want to thank you for all of what you do because you can see, and, you know, we just touched the surface, but what we can learn from civil society groups, the information, the ideas, the delivery, you know, it's enormous, and i know that many people in this room make sacrifices to do this, and you're very committed, and so i want to thank you and thank you for doing such a great job of pulling such an important group together. thank you. >> thank you. [applause]

>> we return now to a forum hosted by the group interaction, to discuss international development and relief work. we'll hear from representatives of mf international, the imf and the bill and melinda gates foundation. it's an hour and ten minutes. >> now, we have the pleasure of doing this while you are eating, and so -- but we thank you for your attention. our session today is entitled "the evolution of multilateral institutions in a globalizing world." the institutions, like the united nations, the international monetary fund, the world bank are clearly evolving to be more up collusive of -- inclusive from new stake

holders, from civil societies, and from individual citizens. other global bodies such as the ga and the increasingly the g20 have filled leadership gap, and they are increasingly shaping the direction of global development. now, the question that we ask is there an argument to be made that the global -- that the global architecture needs to further evolve to expand to a more acquitble and sustainable world? how should these institutions be reformed to better advance human well being and development? in what way can these institutions become more relevant to the 21st century, and are they up to the task? on behalf of all of us, i'd like

to welcome the distinguished panelists who will engage with us on this topic this afternoon. i'm going to start with -- you are the deficit managing directer at the imf, and you just heard what bob zoellick had to say about changes and reform at the world bank. are reforms on the way to the imf as well, and can you tell us about them? >> i would be happy to do that. since the crisis in 2008, you had a sort of renaissance of reforms at the imf such as the result of that, and that's around increasing lending,

changing the way we do surveillance and monitor countries, and adapting more policies. we've developed new products and transformed the governments and institutions. i'll say a little about each of those. on lending, the imf committed over $3 # -- $300 billion since the crisis to fund countries. that includes a corporal increase lending to low income countries in 2009 to enable them to cushion the adjustments they had to make after the collapse of lehmans and the resulting financial crisis, and we did that financing to low income countries at zero interest rates because they were able to cushion the shock at virtually no cost. in terms of surveillance, there's effect how countries do around the world, and we missed the ball on the intraconnection

around the country and the sub prime mortgage prices in the u.s. would dismal effects across the world economy. now we have mandatory sectors for the biggest 25 sectors in the world, and we say to those countries we look at those regularly and not just assess impact on your financial stability, but also your wider impact. we've done more work on risks and low income countries as well as development in the world economy, and more work in the imf. we used to look at a country-by-country issue, but now we are focused on connections between countries and animal -- analyzing what that means. it's clearly an important lesson for us on that agenda. in terms of -- you know, i guess we're no longer the austerity imf, but the adapting imf.

we allow them, to in some places, have stimulus, avoid the risk of stagnation, and also protect safety nets. if you look in africa, for example, they are on average by 2% in fact wake of the crisis, and the imf helped guide that. in terms of cards, there's a sweep of instruments. some are precautionary. countries that have good economic situations but at risk of being bystanders of the crisis can be hit by shocks they were unintended recipients of are now able to have credit lines in the imf. they are just as involved. it's there if they need it. countries like poe land -- poland, colombia, they have that still in place to use when they need it. we also increase the scope of our ability to respond to

crisis, and now we have the financing instruments which can help countries with financing when they have commodity price charts, but conflict situations, and i recently used that for the first time in yemen with the difficult transition. finally, involved in governance reform doubling after the crisis to increase the resources of the imf and roughly about over $700 billion. we shifted the share holdings towards the emerging markets so it's sifting to areas that were over represented in the imf to emerging markets that were under remitted, and now -- remitted, and now countries are in the top of the imf and did that while protecting the void of the low income countries so their share holdings were not cut and maintained their institution while allowing us to

let our own government respect the world economy. >> good. thank you, nemat. stuart patrick is a senior fellow and directer of the institution and global program of the employees relations. in doing a little of research, i saw that he is an expert in multilateral corporation, international institutions, global governments, the u.n., foreign assistance, and post-conflict, so i think he's very well placed being a recognizer for the multilateral cooperation and multilateral institutions and global governance to answer this question. ..

much more to the management of mutual risks and vulnerabilities and i think a zoellick touched on a number of those. in addition, these institutions faced a huge rob him of actually integrating emerging powers and to the existing authority structures, so we have a growing imbalance between trajectories in terms of the global distribution of power on the one

hand and authority structures that are currently existing. unfortunately, what we have had difficulty doing is actually reforming institutions. there have been in the wake of the global financial crisis and after almost major institutional innovations occur only in the wake of a crisis, there have been some institutional reforms within the imf that have since been brought back from the dead. the g20 is a the premier forum for global economic management and the trade stability board. some still lagging performance month in the international institutions. the reasons for this are several. global institutional reform is incredibly tough. there are disagreements over how big to make the table. you see this in questions about how the -- big veggie 20 should be and going for repetition and sacrificing an amount of

efficiency. their questions as you integrate rising powers whose norms are actually going to govern. we have norms within the international development community on good ownership but we also have a lot of pursuit of mercantilism by china and other countries. there's also questions about the relative scope of burden sharing amongst different countries. and then finally, what we find increasingly is the domestic preconditions for effective multilateral institution are lacking. and our own highly charged part of the environment in a united states and particularly the case where there's a reluctance for instance of republicans on capitol hill to invest in international institutions like the united nations, but that is something that is is not just apparent in a united states. is a reluctance that that is in effect global. so we are in this era in which we have no clear leader, no

clear motor of global institutional reform and it's not clear even when the united states maybe can do it. now what happens if we don't get, to get to the last part of your question, what happens if we don't get global institutional reform? here is what happens, issue cord irrelevance of the institution because it's no longer effective. hugh cort competition from other formats and forums so there's a greater use of institutions and a greater use of ad hoc remarks and there was a notion we are going to create our own brick development. and then ultimately live if legitimating totally collapses you cord some challenges to the existing order. i'm not speaking of a military challenge but again the major political challenge with people, for a country that is dissatisfied with the pace of change and voice and wait within an institution starts to become roadblocks within those

institutions and innocents holding it hostage to those sorts of changes. there have been some major changes may. i think sometimes people sell the g20 short even though it's having trouble moving from a crisis committee to a global steering group but it has advanced some global financial regulation and it is constrained if you will the degree of divergence among its members but it still has a long ways to go. >> thank you, stewart. geoffrey lamb is the managing director for public policy. jeff, the engagement with government and international institutions and prior to that you had a substantial period at the world bank. development is now market stakeholder effort involving foundations as we found this

week. businesses, ngos as well as traditional actors like alt-a lateral institutions. how do they need to change to adopt to the new environment we are all facing? >> let me answer that i -- at a little bit of an angle. the gates foundation and most of us who work there are unashamed boosters of multilateralism and what we would like to see actually is moring gauge meant in a multilaterally effective world. we would like to see greater efficiency and focus for these institutions. we would like to see greater civil society support and engagement and as you said some political trends in many major countries are in the opposite direction right now and we think that is a problem. so i think what we try in our

modest way to do is to connect up some of the parts of the work in the private sector and society, among government and say can we find partnerships with some of the key multilateral's to leverage effectiveness and at the same time get some of those multilateral's where they're a bit comfortable in their own space, to be a bit sharper edge and a bit more results focus. now you could say that is a kind of arrogant thing on our part but i think what we'd like to do is to pick the areas where we have some confidence that we have direct experience of what works and what doesn't. to take one example, i think referred to it, the huge success of in global health for example in maternal mortality over a generation. we want to say, how come we have

only have to this. what do we need to sharpen international efforts to bring that down further and we regard multiple institutions -- multilateral institutions that the global level working with civil society and government in the country. so i think what we worry about is the political kind of zeitgeist or spirit at the time is yeah the black helicopters are an effective than there is a world bank and imf title institutions. and so we will have these great new solutions at the gates foundations or magical civil soul society. we don't believe you can do that. there is a substitute like that so we think engagement is the way we have got to go and that will revitalize these institutions as well. >> wonderful, wonderful.

suzanne subeleven and tell a few months ago served as secretary of state for international organizations at the state department and is currently head of the u.s. office of -- international. suzanne, you have a strong human rights. is there are wohl and what is the role for multilateral institutions in the protection of human rights? are these institutions structure to perform that role? >> sure, thanks very much. there is an important role for murder he let -- multilateral institutions and human rights. think about the foundational international human rights instruments and many of them were negotiated at the u.n.. they're all multilateral and have had a huge impact. think of the international covenant on civil and political rights and the convention against torture and the foundational instruments and it's almost hard to imagine

today how you could develop the breadth of consensus that relies on agreement. those are real multilateral triumphs that have a huge impact on the daily lives around the world. year in and year out. so there there's a long history here. it seems like it's a very strong history and if you look at what has happened in the multilateral arena, the u.n. system has been probably the most global organization with a significant role to play on human rights and one of the original -- social security and development was human rights. most of its history is underperformed and the human rights arena and it really is a product of two different pieces, two different factors. one is lack of political will

and the persistent difficulty that has been encountered mustering the political will to act particularly in response to human rights crises around the world. the political divisions that we see in geopolitics and diplomatic relations played out at the u.n. and often causing paralysis in response to human rights crises and the other is operational difficulties so limitations in staffing, ability to mobilize quickly and respond to crises. to really mount and investigative response commensurate with the human rights crises we face throughout the world. i also think there has been some progress in recent years. and i would point to a number of things. the u.n. security council has become much more active for example in the area of women's rights, passing important resolutions on the topic over the last 10 years.

they have also now built human rights components into peacekeeping mission so that there are officials and staff that are charged with human rights monitoring, documentation and technical assistance as part of many of the peacekeeping operations around the world. there is also some progress on the political process. bolivia authorizations last year for example in response to the crackdown on abuse by moammar gadhafi, i think it was one of the many signature examples of the u.n. security council coming together rapidly to initially referred the situation to the international criminal report and later authorize the use of all necessary measures in response to that crisis. there is also of course so many limitations and most prominently over the last few months came to syria where the security council

was paralyzed to exercise a double veto by china and russia, rejecting efforts to condemn bashar al-assad for the crackdown on the syrian population and the crisis that led to nearly 10,000 deaths and in more recent weeks and months, there has been an effort to fortify secretary kofi annan to respond to the crisis with very halting progress there and does not seem to be able to be holding and slow motion monitoring. overall a response that really is inadequate. i also want to call attention to what you've seen over the last few years at the u.n. human rights council in geneva. this is berkeley was a very dysfunctional body and called the commission on human rights that was known for paralysis in

the face of human rights crises, polarization between western delegations and delegations in the global south. or a one-sided focus on certain situations, particularly israel, the exclusion of many others and we have seen substantial progress in that forum over the last few years. they have been very active in responding to the arab string -- arab spring and a whole series of resolutions on syria, building greater and greater consensus, has taken on iran, has passed me un's first-ever rights on lgbt persons. that forum empowers the security council. they cannot authorize the use of force so there are limitations there as well. >> thank you. i'm going to change the conversation slightly on the subject that i'm sure is on the hearts of a lot of people

sitting in his this room. international ngos. we have heard a lot this week about how the ground is shifting, things are changing. there is a lot of focus on partnership, loud conversation on country ownership. so there is a lot on our minds. i think we could say it collectively here. what role do you think these multilateral institutions can play with the international ngos? let me start with -- >> i think for the imf, the international ngos have been increasingly important partners for us in many ways. one in terms of being people we have dealt with on many policy issues. we have got some current policy issues today on how countries manage that as well or the debt

ceiling or the hot topic of how the attacks of financial sector, or ones where we are having consuls -- consultations with international ngos to get their view so we can incorporate that. i think the other important area is part of what the imf does when we work with countries that help them to approve transparency particularly around government budgets, fiscal transparency and they are a bit more trek but obviously part of what our objective is to increase the scope of genuine public debate about fiscal policy. i guess the third area we could do a lot more work on recently that relates to the earlier question with jobs is to work with trade unions. we now have as a normal part of our business, about 80% of our admissions go to countries now and consult with trade unions in that country about labor policies and the impact of a macroeconomic policy we are

discussing on jobs in the job market. i think that has been a very productive and sometimes contentious, but very important set of relationships. >> jeff. >> i think you know, having worked in the world bank for many years and then having observed both the bank and the fund as well as being involved in the african development bank, i think that there have been huge strides recently with which these institutions have incorporated that dialogue. it's not perfect and it sometimes contentious but i think there have been great -- there has been great progress. i wanted again turn the question a little bit on one side because i think that the international civil society movement has been i would say extraordinarily successful in its engagement. it had big wins sometimes against things like that or some

of the climate thanks and some of the other aspects that minute show was talking about, but i wonder whether there is an important challenge coming for the people in this room. let me put it in the following way. at this point, international civil society is sort of structured by great groups like interaction and its component, have got a pretty secure and privileged seat at that table. at the same time, these institutions, at least from the point of view of supporting the poorest developing countries, i think threatened -- are threatened or being hollowed out by what ken rogoff called the great contraction over the next five to 10 years. that is they will be fiscal consumption in the advanced countries and there will be

pulling back from international engagement particularly concessional ones and to the extent that a budget maintained and offended, including civil society partners, they are increasingly bilateral and character. and the challenge that i just want to put to this room is that i think is sometimes civil society organizations have a slightly make state interest in this, because the bilateral agencies are actually quite an important source of funding for civil society, but in my view, a switch to bilaterally oriented aid programs is a retrograde step from the point of view of development effectiveness. and i wonder how civil society groups are going to work out the attention. if i'm right, in fact there will be more pressure over time so that is a challenge.

>> i would like to pick up on that. in addition to the revenue stream question and also weather should be bilateral versus multilateral, i think there is a quandary that many members of this community may face, which is that the western dominated community, global civil society representation can be overwhelmingly from the economic countries and it raises the question of how one is going to democratize development, whether one is going to democratize development by ngos. i would say just a couple of other things on that. i think the world is changing and obviously development as bob zoellick pointed out is going to require huge public/private partnerships and increasing involvement of private sector actors including corporations as well as non-governmental organizations but i think the

notion of coordination is i think increasingly a mirage. i think we are going to have to adapt to this network world in which we get away from civil hierarchy and get much more comfortable with some really networks even though there is going to be redundancy often. i think the big challenge from the perspective of local governance is how do you actually match up the top-down asp rations that are often set by multilateral framework or institutions with the sort of bottom-up efforts of these groups? i think that is a challenge that increasingly is going to cut across a huge number of global government challenge. challenge. >> do you want to comment on that? >> just a couple of thoughts. i think in some ways i agree with the observation. there are a couple of developments in the human rights arena in response. one is an effort of the u.n. human rights council in geneva to create a consortium of human rights organizations including organizations from the global

south that speak in the name of that consortium recognizing exactly what you're saying, but talking on behalf of an amnesty or human rights watch is not expected as talking on the help of a group that can say as african, asian, south american and geo-forces are part of that so there's a recognition of that real effort to build. within some of the mainstream groups including amnesty we recognize we have to change so our focus now is an effort that we are taking under the rubric of closer to the ground which is really about taking amnesty's traditional strength in western europe, canada and the united states, australia and investing resources that we build there to develop the global south so india, kenya, nigeria, brazil, and it's not an immediate process but there is at least a recognition that is necessary and that is the future of the human rights movement. i know what you are saying is very much the case in the

humanitarian arena having had a humanitarian portfolio in the bureau of international organization at the state department. it was very striking to me to see this incredibly symbiotic relationship between the aid community and the u.s. government. it is a critical partnership in so many parts of the world but the multilateral conversation and the role of the u.n. is really a sidebar in many ways. we work to try to make a more central and to focus more on what we need to do to strengthen the work of the multilateral dimension. that was not the centerpiece of the conversation. little bit different in the human rights area because some of the traditional channels of bilateral pressure you know are lessening because a donation is contracting because there is less receptivity and more i would say backlash toward the overweening, western

condemnation and more of an emphasis on messages sent are global. so if you want to make an impression on tehran or sri lanka, you can do more effectively through bilateral channels. >> i know you wanted to comment on that. >> i think the trend you emphasized in human rights ngos is the same for all ngos, just like the international financial institutions have to have more representative government. so the international ngos fill the need to be more representative. i used to work for the -- and i would often joke with the international ngo because we worked closely. they had corporate census and global networks and representative offices and subsidiaries around the world. they were no longer a local

organization. they were really operating and they saw that as part of their logistics. the second thing is i think on jeff's point about changing landscape, it's not surprising that in europe the crisis delivers 50% of global it. aid budgets are generally under pressure and we will be seeing that tandem in the latest ocd numbers. if you look at turkey had the fastest growing aid budget and korea was a big player. those countries are growing their aid budget in a very bilateral way and the question will be willing to actually become truly global players more oriented toward making the multilateral -- and what is the role of the international ngo community in bringing them to the global agenda? my last point will be on picking up on what jeff said, from where

i sit the biggest successes were debt relief, the mdg. those were big global campaigns. sitting in the u.s. and i will.it out, having come from the u.k. where government has stuck to the commitment in the midst of the greatest recession of the century, and a conservative government, it has been pretty successful. so i think it's picking those big global cost-cutting issues and campaigning collectively and when the international ngo community does that it's very powerful. >> before we open it up to the audience here, i wanted to get your thoughts on this whole country ownership because it is a term that is used quite a bit here. and i think it might mean

different things to different folks and i think for a lot of us implementing organizations, there is also a message that comes with it that maybe has become less relevant. somebody alluded to that. any general thoughts on that? >> one of the points is the center of gravity and in development policymaking and execution is moving away from where we traditionally have bothered which is in the north of economy. as bob said in a two-thirds global groove -- growth comes from developing countries although we have the fact, if we are lucky we have to average rate of growth. in the north over the next couple of years at seven or 8% in the global south, so the

dynamic is shifting and with it the self-confidence of governance. that is kind of a double-edged thing for ngos and civil society sometimes because sometimes that is an assertiveness of governmental power by countries, by developing country governments that maybe doesn't provide a great deal of space for civil society voices and that is another whole dimension of it. i think what we have all got to adapt to collectively and something we think about a lot is how do we engage with those new sets of actors with korea and turkey as well as african countries who are now wondering about how to avoid disease and corruption out of mineral -- so i think that model is really going to change a lot over the next 10 years. the negative thing of the

squeeze in the north is i think going to tighten and then growth and the possibility of expansion will also have its challenges. >> i would say on country ownership, two things. first it seems as if obviously this is something that has been in seoul and boson and increased reliance on making sure that sort of language that has so often been given lipservice is actually practiced an actual engagement that these countries and also it even appears in the new deal for fragile states which i think is a very important initiative. it has the almonds of almost a compact between the community on the one hand and the aid

partners. that being said, the question of country ownership is at an act incredible quandary. of course many of these countries are fragile because at least in some cases they are ruled by authoritarian after mondale governments who figure figure -- who are in the business of enriching themselves and therefore, i think in those cases, it's particularly incumbent on the international donors and intergovernmental mental -- intergovernmental organizations to try to identify those centers or integrity within those countries so they can actually work with them and in some cases it may mean passing aspects of the state altogether but it's a very tough to crack.

>> i just want to echo that and say i think there's a distinction between the country ownership and state ownership. that distinction. >> i think that is where we see the challenge. we are talking civil society at large. let me maybe openness of to the audience here. we will do the same thing. i think there are microphones, so raise your hand and the microphone will find you. we have sam for our first question. and i see lindsay is next and. >> since no hands were jumping up i figured i couldn't resist. to what extent is the developed world part of the problem?

it's been interesting, we do have a globalized economy. to what extent it are we both in terms of fiscal policy for development policy actually engaging in the type of multilateral role that many of us would like to see? we often focus on the developing world as a -- the skill set from the north to the global south but i think the lessons of greece and spain toward this fiscal situation in this country. to what extent is there potential contagion from the north it might be a problem both to global prosperity but also to multilateralism? >> who wants to take that? >> i would say there are several things that this brings to mind. one of them as trade policy.

the fact is that after the indian ocean tsunami, the united states provided something in the neighborhood up at least in initial weeks, something in the neighborhood of 800, $900 million to the affected countries. at the same time through its textile policy was taking away in a sense $1.8 billion in what could could've been profits from the textile industries in this country. i think the lack of trade policy and lack of liberalization of tech transfer policies. obviously people are worried about intellectual property issues. the fact is we are -- the wealthy north remains hugely the market for vast quantities of capital flows and illicit substances, money laundering itself being thought of as being perhaps 5% at least of the

global economy, narcotics trade etc. to the degree that there are prohibition regimes that we have imposed and that we are enforcing. we create incredibly absurd perverse incentives within many countries in the developing world to provide us with illicit commodities said in that in a sense drive out illicit economic activity in those countries. massive flows of hot money to this country. i see the imf is no longer afraid of saying people should be able to have capital controls at times. so anyway, just a number of things that we -- i worked a lot on their fragile failing states but it soon became apparent that a lot of the reasons for explaining the lack of successful outcomes was simply these countries where it embedded in a much larger socioeconomic system or economic system that was not necessarily

doing them justice. one of the things we do post-crisis every year, twice here we look at where the big vulnerabilities to the low income countries. we identified identify three. one is slow growth in an advanced economy. the u.s. and europe are not growing. they're not buying goods from poor countries and that is the vulnerability. at the moment commodity prices are pretty high in many developing countries particularly latin america are benefiting from those high commodity prices but it will slow down in asia. that is a vulnerability for poor countries. i guess the third one which is involved with the eurozone crisis is what is happening with banks and many banks are in trouble. they are increasingly reverting to hallmark is so european banks were big players in financing global trade more so than u.s.

and are becoming more nationally focused. there is a little bit of evidence now that trade for low income countries in africa is tight. they can't finance their trade needs as much as they could and that reflects the problem that those european banks are feeling in their home markets. [inaudible] >> i agree and how they characterize it. i would make two personal comments. one, it is often the case that the global crisis is not in any material way caused by economic mismanagement but by developing countries. that is something we should always remind ourselves. and the second observation is as we look forward in addition to

the fact that minutia put, i think we should all be nervous about collective contraction on the part of advanced countries in the name of fiscal consolidation and debt reduction that has the quite obvious keynesian consequence of slowing down of contracting markets and slowing down growth and inhibiting recovery in advance countries that have a sizable negative impact on developing countries which have actually not done too badly, all things considered. i think that is not something that maybe -- national ngos but probably the framework we will work in. >> the expression when two elephants fight, only the ants get trampled.

[laughter] >> a different dimension of how the big players can be the problem, another piece of it is just the ambivalence of our multilateralism and what remains even as power relations shift so dramatically, there still remains an almost indispensability to having stakes at the table and the other major powers. and on the other side and ambivalence very often about dean part of international instruments and all this a vat waxes and wanes in different political parties and figures take different approaches. we had one approach and heavy engagement over the last two years but that could change. that is just another dimension to keep in mind. >> lindsey i know you raise your hand earlier.

>> in listening, i was inspired by jeff's remarks. [inaudible] i was actually inspired by some of jeff's comments about his secure seat at the table and thinking about a panel i said i'd at the world bank organized by the millennium campaign. this is civil society talking about how i was going to influence the mpg family had a representative from me organization talking about a global campaign that was going to go to every village and they were going to influence everything that the u.n. process. we had a european who is very right base in terms of what the mpg's at to look like. i was the american who said we can't talk about this until after our election.

i am just curious as to, i see huge energy and in any huge expectation particularly around the millennium development goal but i don't perceive these institutions as having the capacity to deal with that multilayered energy, both the people that they are used to who play nicely inside and the people who don't and you doing that as a sellout. is there any adaptability at all to deal with the richness and complexity of what is coming at these institutions? >> minutia is going to take care of it. [laughter] >> i think we have adapted a lot and you are right, i presume you are talking about the campaign

for the post and pg bg framework, right? i think recalling what happened last time, it was a multiyear process and there were many voices and many forums in which this consensus was forced and i expect it's going to be the same this time. i think certainly from where the imf sits, we have come so far in terms of our views on transparency and consultation. i can still remember when i was a graduate student trying to get data from the imf in every document was sacred and not all up on the web. all of our consultations on the web. i think we have come quite a long way in terms of having the tools to absorb this. i think what will be different is there will be a lot more players. i think the last time the world did this 15 years ago or so, in

the in the end actually you could get most of the players into this room and going forward what -- given what has happened with technology and everyone can purchase about via the web we will need more intermediaries and people who -- aggregators who enable us to absorb this. i think you are right, it's a much bigger game now and i don't think the imf could cope with answering a billion e-mails. but if we had a process by which those were aggregated into a set of coherent views, so maybe that is what we need to be thinking about. who are the intermediaries and how do we interact with them? >> i'm hearing from you that it's possible that we are not totally there yet and we will have to change the way we relate. >> just a couple over flexion's.

one of the big issues coming out it will that will be discussed and rio at the ge 20 summit summit is this idea of sustainable development goals. a lot of governments warned whether they should be binding at all but i think there reorganizes have quite a bit of input from me for i.d. of ngos. i think they have 677 submissions already but different as text of what they should be doing at the conference and what the priority should eat. with respect to the sustainable economic goals, a there is a lot of question as to whether or not it will -- whether they should replace the mpg. there should be a parallel track. are they universal and not just focus on mpg in the poor

countries? you know, do you have again or should you have parallel processes and should they be binding? should they be voluntary? there are a lot of unanswered questions about what those would look like and how would tilt the balance with 11 sees as the economic social and environmental access of what we see. >> lindsey, i think there has been pretty good progress actually in the big international institutions. maybe the u.n. is more mixed but i think the -- is very positive and making them more what bob zoellick called network institutions or at least networkable institutions. the willingness to engage. they are what they are.

they tend to look at new problems from the perspective of what you of god is a hammer everything looks like a nail. that is still a kind of process and bears expertise and theories rather than a quality and i think that these are institutions that are much more permissible to what the world needs and much more open to being focused around things that a broader community thinks are important and should be worked on and sustained. i think -- i would say it was rather skeptical at the outset when i was in the bank and involved in that. what what i am now concerned about is their replacement with a cool new fdg's. a shiny new car is effective as

and -- [inaudible] >> i think the reason why there is so much more interest and so much larger profit is because of the success. people have seen that they can achieve something. the u.n. was negotiated and there was a lot of skepticism. there have had been a sense, you know a real question about whether people were going to be talking about this at all 10 years ahead. so i think in a way its success but it's not about that. >> one lesson from that is you have got to keep it simple. the mpg's were at the edge of complexity. there were seven of us and not everyone could remember all seven. i worry a little bit about the current crisis but could you have so many players, the risk

of having a team.plan with 32 subclauses and then you will loose the public lesson which is why the mpg, wide debt relief was so successful. they were simple and people could get around the mini-could mobilize communities. >> we still have time for a few more questions. don't be shy now. a the question right there. >> thank you. >> thank you.

you have touched on trade and climate change. both of these areas i think have somewhat failed in making progress. what would you say needs to change in terms of the evolution of multilateral institutions to move forward? what has to happen? >> let me start with trade. i think that the doha development round and its failure or the reason it has not happened is no one has put a stake through the heart of the doha round. i think the g20 communiqué is only noteworthy in saying they can't keep giving lipservice to it. we actually have to either in a

sense kill it and move on or actually move forward with it. my sense is that there may be different aspects of that round that can be taken along in a global framework, but it's going to have to be parceled out piecemeal i think. i think the notion, i think what we are seeing and it is particularly true in the trade round and particularly true when a lot of influential countries are facing elections and a time of economic difficulty, getting public support in getting back to level again bargaining between the domestic politics and the set works for trade liberalization. i also think there is -- this works for climate change as well as we saw in copenhagen and cancun and durban. it's just the absolute exhaustion with the notion of trying to negotiate amongst 193

countries at the u.n. conferences with 193 state representatives and hangers on like much of us. so i think what you're going to see frankly on the trade front is the greater move towards regional or bilateral fda's at least for the time being. the obama is putting a lot of stock in its notion of the transpacific partnership which is an interesting experiment to try to define -- we will see whether or not they have domestic support for that if the president wins the election in november. on the climate front, again my sense is what has happened is you have got a mixture of two different alternatives to the u.n. ccc the process notwithstanding a very big pledge to come up with something that is successful with key out

of -- kyoto. it does hold some prospect of moving together at the margins and then the other is really just articulating horror fragmenting the problem into a number of different parts and rather than going with a full-fledged multilateral binding treaty, what you get are pledge and review situations which countries come up to the multilateral table and say, this is what we are going to do and on technology come mitigation and adaptation, etc. on financing and it's not a particularly aesthetically pleasing way of moving forward. it's uncertain whether or not it's going to be big enough and places a huge degree of faith in technology on climate change but it may be the best that can be done right now particularly at a time and it may be a little

overstated that in the new book, we live in a g saver world zero world with no clear meter and no clear aspirate ready to step up to the plate, think that maybe the world we live in. >> i think the obvious.which i guess analyzes the question is, it's much harder to get global deals when people are thinking of the world as a zero-sum place than it is when there is economic expansion, there is energy behind trade, there's energy and a sense of possibility and is it right now at least for some of the key, whether some of the key trading nations are some of the key in matters that have to be an important part of the deal. that is just not what they think the world is that. i agree with stewart that we are into a much more piecemeal kind of world in which these things will be i hope additive. i think there there's a big

debate about regional and bilateral trade agreements whether directly adding to trade expansion or constraining it, but i think that is right. that is the world we are going to be in and i think for civil society, organizations are concerned about this is much more a series of local battles and local campaigns than the big global compacts are going to produce. >> maybe i am in a sense saying the same thing in a different way, but when their successes in the multilateral arena of the countries presidents take great credit and when there are failures they blame -- and what we see here is, my sense is it is not a failure of the form of the structure. it's a failure of lyrical will and political leadership and for a lot of reasons. that doesn't make it any easier to surmount that when you are

looking at where is the breakthrough going to come from, that leadership isn't there. you won't see it and no reconfiguration of the seats around the table generally. >> we have time for one last question. way in the back there. i think there is somebody. >> thank you. thank you to all the panelists for leading an excellent discussion. i represent water aid here in the united states and we have been involved in putting together a partnership called the sanitation of water for all partnerships which met in high-level meetings just last weekend in washington. and in the partnership, we bring together multilateral's and bilateral foundations, civil society organizations and national governments to think

about how you can get more resources into the sector but also how you can improve the user use and management of those resources. it's only been going on for three or four years. the united states government only joined at the last meeting but we have been very encouraged by this example of how to bring together a multi-stakeholder partnership. i would like to have you comment on this. do you think this is an example of something that can be replicated in the sectors? >> any thoughts on that? >> and i was able to be at the ministerial meeting in washington that talked about that partnership and we were trying to contribute from the gates foundation especially on the sanitation side. i think what is intriguing about this, i'm not quite sure i have the applicability to other

sectors but the thing about water and sanitization is they are absolutely community relevant in a very direct way. everybody's life every day and at the same time at the other end they are about big types in big systems and big investments. i think part of the intriguing thing and i suspect that more and more are going to be the case with the development process, is that you have to find ways to marry those. we have any number of solutions, any number of attempted solutions to big development problems that are taking a big model in saying we take that right down to the village in and we are done and as bob was saying, it doesn't work. this seems to me to be an example of at least in principle trying to think about incentives, behavior, try rds,

families, what they need and how they get access and what the connections are to help and so on and then try and build that up. it might be that if that works, the resources are sustained in the political energy that i saw around that may be sustained it might be a great model and i hope it will be. >> just very briefly, it sounds a little bit reminiscent of secretary-general's affordable energy for all proposals which i think the u.n. has had a higher level panels over the years but that one was the one that was the managed -- most recent and had significant private-sector presence as well as non-governmental presence as well as official presence and i think what you are pointing to in this initiative to the water for all partnership is that you have to include a variety of

stakeholders and create -- because what of harming out of this are the networks and the similarity and the relationships and to execute business people understanding what the relevant policy decisions aren't also what the local needs of the community are and perhaps governmental organizations showing what some of the financing options are going to be, that they can actually participating in. i'm only spec lading because i was not involved but it seems like the wave of the future that he would have a little bit more of a multilateralism that might be the way to go here. >> one last thought for the community in relation to multilateral organizations? what do you want to leave them with? >> keep the faith and keep pushing. [laughter] >> i would agree. if you look at the role of civil society and organizations, there

are many dimensions. perhaps the most important really, and i can say this coming from inside of the government, there's a source of pressure, pressure to get people in government delegations to do what they want to do and what they don't want to do but if that pressure isn't there the potential for just frustration is as we talked about, is virtually endless so i think it's badly needed. >> just one thought that over the past few years we have dealt with the turbulence not only of the global financial crisis but we have also had bolivia of various commodity prices with fuel, food security issues etc.. it would seem to me that one of the goals overriding objectives of the development cooperation should the to help build the resilience of local communities, to be able to handle the shocks and there are undoubtedly many different ways of dealing with this.

i think this is important not only for the development community but the humanitarian community which is also represented here. i just posted a very interesting seminar at the foreign relations on the future of natural disasters assistance and some of the scenarios pointed out the combination of demographic growth, urbanization and particularly urbanization on coastal areas and we were talking saying we will be so much more vulnerable particularly in the developing world and not only what we saw in fukushima. the sorts of catastrophic events that will require huge resilience on local populations and just seesmic sample, bangladesh was thrown out as one in the 1970s and early 1990s had such horrific problems and huge record loss of life in dealing with some of these regular cyclones but a more recent years has developed its

own indigenous capacity to be able to cope with some of these things. .. "crazy u" and

>> host: andrew ferguson and come your book is called "crazy u: one dad's crash course in geting his kid into college" when you think back on this experience, what are those moments in your head? >> guest: this is a whole series of moments, many which i work at, but i had to record them anyway. the one that sticks in my mind the most way of saying goodbye to my son and dropping them off at college. the book takes us out the way to the beginning of even the kinetic colleges in thinking about colleges to get a man and dropping them off to school because it was a very -- it was the culmination above the 18 months of worry and anxiety and for a parent is very bittersweet feeling because on one hand you shut that kid out the door and is on its own. on the other hand, you know come you don't really want to see the tape go. so it is sort of ultra-

miniature. as a say in the book, to the apparent means that you are training the people you can't live with out to be without them. it is exactly what happens. c-span: will come back to other things. simon & schuster put together what they call a pr vehicle for you to promote this book and i think i overheard to say -- what if you are audience a chance to see which are some expect because you can't see it in the book. let's run this. ♪ >> i may enter fergus m., author of "crazy u: one dad's crash course in geting his kid into college" and this is the kid.

when i start to think of what the admissions process had to do, and the effect it had on their relationship, i started to think of some of the things that didn't happen. there was no homicide involved. there was no nervous break down. so i think in the end we were pretty much better off than we were before because they no longer have to worry about getting into college. >> i mean, it was very stressful, definitely very straining. there were times i wouldn't want to see them because they knew every time you try what i had for he walked by me but he me about doing the essay, doing some work on my application it was hard because ebp financier close behind me the entire time that i was writing. >> he could never tell what direction he was moving.

the other part was effective up by and harass you, you were going to sleep. you have turned on espn. c-span: this book closed in march of 2010 a year ago. in your letter, and nurtured action, when did your son go to this school? >> guest: the previous september. so he matriculated in september september 2009. this is all taken place during 2008, 2009. c-span: what does the word matriculate name? >> guest: i can explain, sorry. i still -underscore they said i was matriculating. are you supposed to do that in public? anyway, he was enrolled. he showed up in school in september of 08 -- 09.

c-span: ivanoff ever seen a booklet this from a publisher. >> guest: they had to do this a couple months ago and i did note it ever gotten done. but it's supposed to make people want to buy the book and i'm not sure how that works. >> host: c-span: when did you know you had a boat? >> guest: that was pretty early on. i didn't know what everything for her. all of a sudden my son started getting solicitations in the mail and these dates that few books they are caught, paper shares and really it paper like a rubber plant. he didn't know whether to look at it or slurp it like a giraffe. so tasty looking. so it's very expensive packages they were sending him. i thought back. nothing like that it happened to me when i was looking and

thinking about college in the 1970s. so it was starting to dawn on me that this is a very much different process from what it was. of course we had french is starting to percolate with a little bit bits of anxiety about themselves and i realized that i went looking for a book actually. there's tons of books and i couldn't find anyone that sort of satisfied with those looking for her. for one thing i didn't want it to be more robust in the groupie is in really serious, but on the other hand i wanted to have a few tips that i could trust. so i said i'll just write it. c-span: human to occidental college in california. when did you graduate? >> guest: 1978. c-span: you said $5100 tuition. is that a year? and then use that used to fight

inflation to $16,000 today except as 40,000. >> guest: well over 40,000. so now what you see why i did the book. i do find a way to pay for my kids college education. c-span: what is the reason for that beyond inflation caused? >> guest: it is the question that the $55,000 question that every parent faces in her situation, which is how you pay for a? why is it so expensive? i couldn't get a straight answer. there have been some studies done, but mostly academic shied away from the subject i suppose for obvious reasons they don't want to talk bad. the few studies i could find were not that helpful. finally found a guy who am i typed to buy them both. as a whole chapter of financing a might cause so much and he is a professor at ohio state, an economist who has studied the

economy of higher education so it really that every president at the university hates him because he's actually applied and his name is richard fetter. so i went to see that her basha bacher acetal me the answer to the question that no one will answer. what if they keep raising prices? he said because they can. and in a nutshell that day. he said who's going to stop them? the government's not going to stop them. you're not going to. the kids don't know what's going on. and so it keeps going up and up. c-span: what is the difference in the cost from state schools versus private school? >> guest: it depends on the state school and private school. my son is going to a state school and now, so he's probably -- we're probably paying about half of what we would pay if he had gone to

private liberal arts school. c-span: let's go back the bacterium situation now. you and your wife live where? >> guest: arlington virginia across the bridge. c-span: how many kids do you have? >> guest: two. c-span: what was your relationship with your son? >> guest: he could answer that better than i could. we've always gotten along very well and he's just a wonderful person as is my daughter and i know you're shocked to hear that, but i really like my kids. we've always had a good relationship and i've been pretty candid and open. this thing really did kind of put -- put pressure on it that it not been there before. partly my fault, partly that i was thinking about this too much. partly his fault because he was lackadaisical at times. towards the end the picture i had of him with those biases at

the end of titanic voting facedown in the water with the position my son had his sound by the time we were all through. so anyway, i knew this, as i said before, the book is really that tight again to college. it's about how to survive in the process. we have friends who really thought they damage their relationship with their kids because of the pressure. c-span: you dedicate they have no idea what your son is aiming to. the >> guest: i didn't name anybody. i guess there's a few people named -- one as they say in the air, a couple names are changed and i wanted to -- first off i wanted to let it be his choice if he wanted to come out and in a spectacular way.

i thought it made it more -- his character in the book more dramatic because as wonderful a kid as it is what he was going through was millions of kids go through over the case that i might be better if it was an identified training. but i should also say i think maybe he's cladding the end. c-span: do call him kill or kill him? >> guest: i think his friends call him killed. it's an old family name. as i tell him how come he had to choose between two old family names. one was his great great grandfather and the otherwise craighead. i said you could of been craig ferguson for you could've been gillum ferguson.

one was big state university or picu and i'll tell you online peer bacher talus? >> guest: i didn't want to identify that. if you notice on the books iodide inc. i live in suburban washington d.c. that was of me. i don't know why i thought i could get away with leaving that ambiguous. so anyway, he got to her big state university, the university of virginia. he applied to virginia tech and a couple of other schools like that. part of the problem at the university of virginia as it has the reputation because of thomas jefferson and because that beautiful is historically significant and so on is that it does have a reputation as being

something other than say university of kentucky, university of illinois, but it's not really. it peaked at the further reaches of it, kansas university. c-span: there's just a little bit more if you talking and gill talking about what is in the mind of a 17-year-old kid. >> we had one bit of it feiss early on that didn't take that i was quite adamant that we not take when gillum was going to start writing his essay for the college application that had to be a work of passion. i wanted him to take deep into the cells, his innermost thoughts. he's a 17-year-old boy. he doesn't have any innermost thoughts. and if he did, you don't but i know it they are. so the cleveland through the

process. without ever telling with innermost thoughts are. >> you're welcome. c-span: he understands your sense of humor? >> guest: yeah, we've always been on the same way like that. same way i am with my daughter. there's a sort of routine and touch of sarcasm in there. bright co. what was your agreement with your son about this book? did you have any? did you give him the opportunity to say i don't want to participate? >> guest: no, no, this is how we're paying for his college education, but also at how to the manuscript because i didn't want him to have anything in there he felt was embarrassing or anything like that. i really didn't want to do that. but he didn't have any choice weather is going to write about it or not. years ago i made a decision as a

journalist and writer that it is never going to write about my kid. writing about your kids for: is the ultimate failure of imagination and self-indulgent and so on. so i've been writing about my kids for the last 20 years. i couldn't keep the pledge. c-span: cities of freshmen at the university of virginia. >> guest: sophomore. second year they call it. c-span: how did he do his first? >> guest: i never got to see the grades. well, he told me what they were. i assume he's telling me the truth. he's doing okay. he's very active in a fraternity and he's having a great time, and may be too great of a time actually. c-span: what do you think of college? the whole idea of it? >> guest: that's partly what the book is about. who is trying to figure out what i thought about college.

my only experience in the 70s as i was sort of looking and was ambivalent about it. it was right when the revolution of the 60s is taking hold is really becoming sort of the mainstream college campuses. as they say the revolutionaries xt eight became a 75 in the department shares at 85 and 90. and i saw this sort of change, this transformation of which you call political correctness down, getting rid of all the variety of rules, which had curfews and the one. and now the university colleges are in full flower. they are serious drawbacks to it i think. well, i think a lot of kids are getting the education -- are finding it harder to get the education they could some of these schools.

one of the things i talk about is the university of virginia has very few -- no mandatory survey classes, you know, european history from 1066 to 1522 or american literature from the revolutionary period from 18 feet, which used to beat the meat and taters of the arts education. now professors, for reasons of self-interest like they want tenure and want to get published or baking these silos of little individual details of scholarship, you know, witchcraft from south london from 1688 to 1592 and stuff like that. those are the classes on offer are the cave spirits at a con man in anyway and they look around and don't have any way to get their bearings because there's no way to get a broad

brush of education the first couple years. c-span: go back to your son and he was hobbled when the first few that came in? >> guest: 16 i guess. how many did he get over a period of time? >> guest: several hundred. i say probably 200. c-span: how did they know he was about to graduate? >> guest: this is the thing i found out that i don't think other people know. anonymous delegates take apart his sat test committed biggest achievement test aptitude test and college, they take a psat a couple years before -- a psat is a practice that the sat and assorted kids when they're freshmen or sophomores that there's a question that goes with it. if i ever knew i'd forgotten that it's actually rather detailed in the kid discourages all kinds of information about

himself, you know, what is it good is that they can have a sense of how much money his family has, the kinds of courses cease taking, the region of the country he'd like to get in or go to schooling. so the college board puts on the sats and amasses this huge databank of information about each perspective college student in america. c-span: did it so that college? >> guest: they sell for 30 cents a name. the colleges come and say, you know, we're a small baptist college in the southwest. we need to know the names of every baptist kid within 100 miles of our campus. and the college came up with a certain number of kids. they buy that list and then the colleges start bombarding them with these books and e-mails. c-span: what you think of that? >> guest: i think it's awful.

the view of this and the businesses that they saved the way kids find us. this is the way, you know, like this kid may not know where he could go and his parents would like them to go to amass the colleges sought him out and reach through his mailbox but and drop this thing in his living room, but i find that less convincing. i certainly don't and you would be as elaborate of a system if they were just about helping the kids find a college. c-span: first of all, what does it cost to apply to the college? >> guest: well, it varies. it's $60 to $90. some of them are lies. some of them are between $40.90. c-span: how many colleges did gillum apply to? >> guest: i believe p. c-span: so you're already

putting out $400. >> guest: some kids now are applying to 12, 14 schools. c-span: how many schools did you visit? >> guest: he had the number. i think it was over 10. c-span: digi go with him every? >> guest: yeah, my job was to drag him. he wouldn't have gone anywhere. c-span: where did he go? >> guest: we went to uva. for expense reasons, a lot of parents really put together a lover college tours. we went to a kind of an extreme for reasons of autonomy, i would try and piggyback thinks if i had to go on business trips. so i had to go to california, so he went to london so colleges up there. what had to go to wedding in

chicago, so we thought college is we went to visit friends in new england so we saw colleges they are. i try to economize as much as possible. but you can get into real money if you want to do a thorough college search. c-span: based on what colleges who had to, which would you have picked? >> guest: i really liked dartmouth because it is sort of old and new england. c-span: did he? >> guest: no, he hated. we went on a warm summer day and he wasn't fooled. he knew it would be pat. i talk about this in the book on my wife and i had developed this rule, when you go on a college tour and there's a village aspect to it, kind of a false wrapper they show you the beautiful climbing wall and jan and fantastic macrobiotic food

options in the food court. so my wife and i would go to the bathrooms at the student union because they almost always had it billboards are both words and they pose the coming attractions happening at school that we can do you really feel that are about the life of the school that way and they were advertising a sex feher. i believe it was in the coming week and there were going to be having a wide sex demonstration and afterwards they were going to giveaways free ben & jerry's ice cream. and you know as i said to my wife, when i was a kid, you didn't have to get free ice cream to drive people to a sex fair. so anyway we went to this and that was the only time my son said well maybe i will go to

dartmouth. i'm a for the whole jeffersonian line that they -- c-span: the university of virginia is how far? >> guest: two and a half hours. for the undergraduate -- i shouldn't say because i'm not sure. i think it is about 12, 14,000 undergraduates and a big graduate program. c-span: what point did he decide he wanted to go there? >> guest: he thought about it all along is one of his favorite clothes. we were very lucky and high-class problems. he had a range of choices he could entertain a period that notre dame he think was his first pick. but then he started relight name it was a lot of snow and ice there. our first meeting with the college counts were

>> guest: too many. i think we stopped after the fourth or fifth. the last we went to, we sat fairly close to the front where the dean's from harvard and princeton and someone else -- anyway, he fell asleep rather ostentatiously. that's what he was doing comer circuit had ruled sleep and of course all the other. they are are sort of hunched over with their black. because they're not paying attention either. so my son is sticking up like a cornstalk absolutely dead to the world. so that's when i escorted him out. c-span: what else would you tell

a friend about getting kids into college? >> guest: well, this is a sort of serious one. i made the dreadful mistake of enough of financial aid form of putting up the until the night before. the fafsa form which is financial aid form -- c-span: free application financial -- >> guest: i always put it out of my mind. but it is incredibly elaborate forms at delves into -- a friend of my -- mind you settled take you hours to put this together. they say it should take you longer than an hour. c-span: what is the point of it?

>> guest: the fafsa -- if you have to get any kind of financially, whether it is a grant or work study program or pell grant, loans now available from the government, you have to fill out a fafsa. this is information readily available to schools themselves. one of the things i talked about in there that i don't think people realize it's a schools are in possession. when you apply for financial aid for when you even just apply and fill out a fafsa, they are in possession of your financial information. they know how much money you have made and how much your way for has or husband makes and how much savings you have and so on. so when they put together and a financial package, they are bidding essentially with complete knowledge of finances. imagine if you were a car salesman and you could have everything you needed to know

about somebody's finance, how much they're prepared to pay you'd really like that information. c-span: there's a bunch of things dimension. the last clip with your son, gillum about the essay. what is the essay. >> guest: that with each rheumatic. i think what i talked about friends who would damaged relationships with their kids, it came during that process because they call the college application, but it's really an essay that the application is questions to fill out. and the essay is where they say they are going to get to your innermost thoughts and they want the kid to show passion, show the real you, read about yourself in a creative, funny --

not funny. i don't think the late humor, but hey, you know, and a self revelatory way are supposed to expose yourself. c-span: how long are they? >> guest: not more than 500 words, although we saw some were 12 under with a limit. c-span: can you write one essay? >> guest: the common application is one standard essay. it has there's so many schools taking the common application which is one application online that the investor probably more than half of the colleges in the united states take your common application. the schools in addition got a few more assays. there are usually available to kids something straightforward words tell us something about ourselves. right about something intimate

about yourself. well, i know for many years of feeling out of it, writing about yourself is an extremely difficult thing to do without. they say many of them are prepared to do, a lot of them don't like to do. my son, have a 17-yard comments came up. he's not introspective and why should he be? i wasn't at that age. and it's intrusive. and how come he certifies the kid to reveal something that may not be their business. c-span: could you have written the essay for him? >> guest: i could have and i know people who did. i know this college counselors people higher. i talked to people who charge $40,000 much less than that will

admit and talking to buy what they college do that if they don't know who wrote it? >> guest: well, they say admissions officials can tell the difference. they can sniff out an unfair something that's been over coach or even written for them i guess is what that is. i talk about the services on the web. not because i used it, but because i was doing this but at the same time. i wouldn't pay to think $200, maybe more to try and assays and i filled out a little form the sort of described an epiphany and my son's life, which wasn't really an epiphany, so i wrote

about the things that has fired that has happened and gave them the details of god, sent it out of and within a week i had a full-blown essay back, written first-person, with all the buzzwords that the survey says college admittance like, which is university, passion and so one of the one and how great am going to do at your school and how great i am and all of that. so i could have just picked this thing up and given it to him and he could've put it in an envelope and send it off. c-span: and the income your son was admitted to the university of virginia with white sat score? >> guest: i don't know. i don't know off hand. got good scores. i talk about the kids in the air

and the get kids -- sats are now on a scale of 2400. used to be 1600. because they have added another segment to it. so he's a smart guy. c-span: how did he do in high school? >> guest: he was a good student. c-span: was he a 4.0? >> guest: i don't remember. c-span: do some asking the same wondering what he did that let him in. >> guest: no one will ever know. and this is the thing. the decision-making at the colleges themselves do is they bought box. amy, you cannot discover what precisely it is that determines whether one kid gets in and

another. there's all sorts of secrets in it that i talk about that kind of hint of what is going on. but will vary from school to school. he represents for that. they are in business, but they're in the higher education business and they are trying to get the kids they want to get. they have proprietary secrets. they're doing one things to get kids the kind they want and they don't want to know how they're in competition with them. they have proprietary secrets. c-span: how many schools of eight or so did he get turned down? >> guest: i should've thought of that before. that role. probably half. c-span: you said notre dame? >> guest: i think he was waitlisted. c-span: uva is way up there in the likability. but there is no reason why you couldn't -- that is the state's quote that is pretty popular in the state of virginia.

>> guest: god yes. he had all kinds of things going to kinston because we live in northern virginia and because it is a state school it has to have geographic diversity. so he had some marks against him. believe me, when he got in, we were very happy. c-span: cat. >> guest: catherine colin. c-span: tell us the story. >> guest: that's when i decided we should do this book. a friend called and told me about a woman in manhattan was a college counselor commit very successful, huge business that beautiful office near carnegie hall and she charges as they say then the platinum package as she called it as $40,000, sort of a soup to nuts than thing, where shall take your hand can age 14 or something and tell the kid

what classes to take, you know, but extracurriculars to have, all designed to get into the school that the parents or the kids want to get into. and i just was a god that $40 figure. c-span: is that paid up front? >> guest: is paid in increments as you go along. only talked to one guy who's actually done the whole 40 grand. so i called her after she agreed to let me go with her to a seminar that she was giving up in connecticut, suburban connecticut to a group of high net worth individuals as they are called, the euphemism for really, really rich people. and you'd have to be i suppose. so this is just at the start of the process. i think my son had just gotten -- is getting his psat scores, so it's early in the process.

i went up there and saw these people who were -- the look of a hungry wolf in their eyes as she, you know, try to walk them through exactly what the kids are going to have to do to get into brown or harvard, you know, princeton, stanford. i thought a couple of things. one is this, this is appalling. and number two, i better get on the shtick because these people are trying to -- i talked to parents there who has been amassing brak sheets as they are called. it is almost like a resume for kids. the seventh, eighth grade, compiling videos of their sports performance is, music recitals, saving of mentions of them in the local newspaper, saving

assays or something the kids had written, all in the interest of this glorious day when they would get into brown. c-span: what makes cat: qualified to testament to get into college? >> guest: well, she's extremely smart. she had worked at around i believe. she had been -- i guessed she started in the admissions department at brown and worked there for several years and she has a very wide network of acquaintances than friends. so i think she always knows what is hot in the academic marketplace. c-span: what did it cost for people to go to the seminar? >> guest: the seminar was free because -- excuse me, because the bank -- it was held at the bank on the top floor of an investment bank. and so, the bank had gotten all these people together to scare

them and basically so that the people that start investing more money through their banks and get a higher rate of return so they could then afford around. the lady who came out and introduced capco and was with the bank and she said okay, let's say you're in connecticut and you've got three kids. of course no one in there had three kids. you only have two kids now if you're high net worth individual. anyway, she said les huguenin yukon, fairfield and yell. and 10 years it's going to cost you a million box to send your kids for four years. c-span: how many kids? >> guest: three kids. one to a state school, one might fairfield, went to jail. and that's been a shock wave through the audience. and then cat came out, catcalling came out and started reading off some of these except

dancewear college of the ozarks has a 16% acceptance rate. or go beyond university in hawaii has 16%. and then you get down into brown, harvard, he'll were you were well under 16%. it was a great one-two punch. these people were scared. c-span: unit to see the college board. >> guest: no, i didn't. i spent time with their critics, one of whom i talk about in their pod schaeffer was a big critic. >> guest: what they described them in their offices and how much money they make. >> guest: that was bob schieffer. c-span: who was bob schieffer? >> guest: i think he has had bergerac her and he is a long-standing organization dedicated to basically eliminating achievement or

aptitude tests from college admissions and beyond that from everywhere in the work place and graduate schools and so on. they are dedicated to the idea that the s.a.t., the azt, another college admission classes quite as popular now, but they believe the s.a.t. as essentially a racist and class this document that heavily favors white upper-middle-class people and should be abolished. c-span: who believes that? >> guest: fair testing. i don't think they are right at all. i've been in there about the history of the s.a.t. it's almost like a history of our police -- american believes in equality and opportunity and fairness over the last 80 years to trace how the s.a.t. has changed and try to respond to

political pressure in different social sciences being done. but the thing i discovered -- i took the s.a.t. and at the same time my son was taken it, i dropped him off in front of the high school on saturday morning with all these other kids hiding around the front of the building all looking kind of nervous and i thought well, of course they're nervous. as it turned out, the only reason they were nervous is because they were going to have to give up their cell phones and they couldn't text message for four hours. first time in the life they've ever gone that long. i went in and took it myself and one of the things -- i learned many things about myself in that awful four-hour. one of the things i've learned is that the s.a.t. is incredibly boring. aside from the math stuff, which was solid -- that might have been written cuneiform. i didn't understand that at all. but the actual reading part was

drab. there wasn't anything you could kind of get your hooks into. and i found a reason for that. the reason is the college board had done it such links that no one will ever be offended by anything on the s.a.t. they bleached out anything at all provocative or interesting from it. i go when they are, the hoops that they jumped through to cleanse their test of any kind of conceivable class or gender or racial or ethnic bias. c-span: does the college board on the s.a.t.? >> guest: the dow had a change in the relationship i don't quite understand. the dts rights the past -- writes the test. they have the office in

princeton. bob schaffer was very offended by that because they see there in princeton that the mailing address is in the next town over. and the college board which has offensively elaborate and expensive space by lincoln fanfare. they are the ones who make sure that they get that two of the right people. c-span: is all this for profit? >> guest: you know, supposedly none of it is. we know there's a lot of talk about for-profit schools and how terrible they are. i keep bumping into the fact that it was competitive, the college is trying to get onto the best school and it reminded me that -- of a friend of mine he said a philanthropy has a wonderful thing, which is not is

a desert nation of the tax code and the school is our maximizing revenue and cost just as any other business would, just as a freak that they don't have to into the. higher education in america is an incredibly competitive industry run by people who refuse to believe they're an industry or they are competitive. that is the truth. it is a market and a very vicious one. c-span: who are the kitchen people? >> guest: has started to occur to me i noticed this happening. you now, and our little suburb bears barbecues and parties -- cocktail parties or whatever, dinner parties.

and everyone we went to from the time my kid was 16 on, they repeat this little group of people who would end up in the kitchen or maybe out in the back or send an intriguing gossip and information on little kid says of tips and things we might have heard about how to get the kids into school. or did you hear about this college counselor in high school? he's terrible. you've got to get this college counselor. so i started to think of this as sort of a tribe within a tribe of people have been together that little hamsters in a cage for trying to comfort each other. c-span: so unions and the kitchen people? >> guest: yes. c-span: how old is your daughter? >> guest: she's going to be -- right after this airs, she will be 18. i hate to say, but my daughter would be 18. c-span: is she going college?

>> guest: shoe gone into charleston. c-span: at all costs to little more. >> guest: i just discovered how much it will cost me, but we won't talk about that. anyway, a beautiful place and that seems to fit her very well. c-span: did you go through this at there also? >> guest: yeah, she was i think less tolerant of my hover and then son was, but it was also a colmer experience because i know how it ends. i know having been through it with my son, i realize you do survive. so knowing that that was going to happen, was much easier to go through. c-span: are now in the middle of having two kids in college with thoughts of money every year.

you talk in the book that there's $143 billion of financial aid available. is that a year? >> guest: yes. c-span: firmware? >> guest: a lot of it is the federal government. although who knows what the budget now. coupon administration has tried to increase the amount of money available and pomegranates. but there's also subsidized loans. it is now happening that it's coming out for the federal government. that's what it thinks the obama administration tried to reform is the whole student loan market. it's pretty much a tachometer state government, private foundation of the federal government. c-span: what do you think about? >> guest: i think it's a problem because for a lot of reasons. one of them being i'm not getting none of that money. i applied for it. curiously, one of the things you

realize when you watch this steady climb of tuition cost is it is attended every step of the way by an increase in available aid, mostly federal aid such as subsidized loans or grants. there is some relationship. academics are studying what effect the relationship is. so i thought this increase in aid over the last 30 years and the huge increases in tuition, the number of people below the poverty line or even in lower quintile of population, it is pretty much the same percentage of the college population. all of that past in hopes of inducing more poor kids going to college, which is a perfectly worthy goal, we've just been a lot of money and nothing seems to have been. c-span: how many four year universities and colleges are in the united states?

>> guest: i believe it's 2000, but i may have been mixing up by numbers. if you pay 1500 or 2000. maybe it's 1200. i'm sorry, it's been a while since i've written it. c-span: i think the number you've written the book is 1400. but then how many -- >> guest: those numbers are a look at the clock. i've never seen a solid figure on the exact number of four-year colleges in the united states. c-span: the "washington post" over last weekend wrote a piece on kaplan education. teacher read it? it is about their own company and the wrongdoings of their own company, kaplan education which amounts to 60% of revenues are spent to them. but that is all about private colleges, online colleges in all of that. you look at any event and did your son ever think about doing

any of the private colleges? >> guest: online, for profit? >> guest: no, he added their options. i've since looked into them. it's not really in the book because i was trying to read about a certain kind of experience and this was a part of our experience. i've gotten very interested in it as a journalist tried to read about the for-profit schools and i'm very interested by the hostility of the for-profit schools have generated. reiko y? just as they are singled out for wasting money, sort of and federal money for through loads and programs they get. c-span: why are they getting money and towards tuition that's jacked up? >> guest: the problem is they are for-profit and they're making a lot of money.

some of them are making huge amounts of money. they're utterly dependent on federal money. if that federal sector at america and the phoenix in august as just collapse. but that is also true of the nonprofit schools. the schools become creatures of the student aid base unit that is out there. but the violations are transgressions of the for-profit schools, bringing in kids who probably shouldn't be there, not following up and helping them with job counseling, not following them to make sure they can pay off loans and so on after they're gone as happening in the nonprofit. c-span: what do you think a 10 year? >> guest: well, if fire professor, i would love it. i think it's basically a good idea. i think these guys needs to have the freedom to pursue what they want. the problem is the very things

that tenure was designed to provide, which is insulation for political pressure and so one is not being provided, so i'm told fairly reliably by a number of professors to pressure is now being brought to bear within departments themselves, where people are kind of, as they say political been enforced for people at conservative or moderate views feel like they're being penalized for that. >> , have you been with "the weekly standard"? >> guest: since it began in 1895. c-span: your hometown is where? >> guest: kingstown, illinois. c-span: besides accidental, where did you go to school? >> guest: a number of places. i was in california berkeley in the graduate theological unit. as in church divinity school of pacific. indiana university. i get around. c-span: how did your liking but do?

>> guest: i think i did well. i hope it did well. people get addicted to this amazon has the ranking promise things are selling insulin. it is like a crack pipe. i saw my first book came out and i could get addicted to that so i keep stay away from it. break out what is your next up? >> guest: i'm dying to find a good idea but haven't yet. break of the experience you have this book, was the most hilarious moment you in your son dissipated? >> guest: well, i mentioned him falling asleep at the college night, that was probably offhand the one i remember most. c-span: how pressure daughter? >> guest: well, my daughter is a saint. she was dragged along on all of this and these college trips. emily is her name. c-span: what is your wife's name? >> guest: denise. c-span: what does denise think

of all of this? >> guest: well, she got as a another word that i didn't give full enough expression to her sons wonderfulness and that i was somehow muting has put jocular gifts and charms and i'm sure is true, is a very wonderful guide. what hard to do justice. c-span: on the scale at easy and hard, where she put this book from your standpoint? >> guest: for writing it? it's never easy. it was very hard. i felt like i was doing a lot of different things because i have a lot of journalism and reporting and i've forgotten most of the facts by now. at the same time, as they say i was writing about myself in a way, which kind of makes me antsy and i was trying to tell a story. so all of those things that once was kind of difficult. c-span: at the name of the book

is "crazy u," the letter you. "crazy u: one dad's crash course in geting his kid into college." andrew ferguson, thank you for your time. >> guest: thank you. >> for a dvd copy of the program call 1-877-662-7726. for free transcripts or to give us your comments about the program, visit us at q&a.org. q&a programs are available at c-span podcasts. >> this is not just a biography of lyndon johnson. i want each book to examine

political power in america. i'm saying this is the kind of political power. see what a president can do in a moment -- in a time of great crisis, great crisis, what does he do to get legislation moving, that is a way of examining power and a time of crisis. i want to do this in fall. it takes 300 pages. so i just said let's examine this. ..